Hello Tamra,

 

Thank you for your message.  Yes, in theory, you are correct.... if it takes one minute to digitize a single image and you wish to digitize one second of video at 60 images per second, then it would take 60 minutes to digitize this sequence.  However, while this works out mathematically, this is not a realistic scenario.  I will explain below.

 

The "manual" mode of digitizing is also referred to as "semi-automatic" digitizing.  In the first image of a sequence, the software does not have any idea where the desired points are located, therefore, the user must move the cursor to each point and press the mouse button to digitize that point.  The APAS software incorporates a prediction algorithm that will position the cursor in the expected location based on previous information.  In the second image, the software only has one previous image to work with (Image #1) so the software will automatically place the cursor in the same location for each point that was digitized in the first image.  The user then makes any minor adjustments (if necessary) and clicks the mouse button to digitize the location of the point in the second image.  When the image is advanced to the third image in the file, the software now has two previous digitized locations to work with (Image #1 and #2) so the software uses both position and velocity measures to predict the location of each point in the third image.  As with the second image, the user makes any minor adjustments and clicks the mouse button to confirm the location of each point.  After 3 or 4 images have been digitized, the prediction algorithm uses position, velocity and acceleration measures and works very well and the user is only clicking the mouse for the digitizing process.  This "semi-automatic" mode greatly increases the speed of the digitizing process.

 

What this means for practical purposes....  An experienced user can manually digitize a full golf swing, or tennis swing from 3 cameras (60 images each) in 15 or 20 minutes.

 

There are other options that can be used to increase the speed of digitizing, though the use of these will depend upon your exact applications.

 

   -  The APAS does not require that every image be digitized.  The user can digitize every second or third image during portions of the video where the movements are relatively slow.  For example, on a simple gait analysis, if the subject is walking very slow, then the user could digitize one image, skip one or more images, digitize another image, skip one or more images etc....  The APAS will automatically use a linear interpolation to fill in the missing data

 

   - The APAS-XP software option includes the CAPDV software module where video can be captured directly to the computer hard disk drive from up to five cameras simultaneously.  This significantly reduces the time required to capture video individually from multiple cameras and then synchronize the video together.

 

I hope this helps to answer your questions.  Please feel free to contact us for any additional information.

 

Sincerely,

 

John Probe

Ariel Dynamics, Inc.

info@arieldynamics.comEmail: 

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 9:52 AM, <rww5325@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi RobynOkay, finally got a handle on your file.1.  You sent me the wrong .cf file.  It did not match the 1t and 2t and 3d.  However, I took the .cf file you sent me and changed the name to match the others.  It had three trim.trim.trim in it and I simply changed it to trim.cf.  I think the real .cf is in your computer but you missed it.  However, the corrected .cf worked well. 2. I was able to view the stick figure but it was aligned from the top.  This is a function of how you set up  your calibration volume.  More on this later. 3. I was able to align the file on the positive x and get a walking figure.  It was very rough and you are right, many kinematic parameters were unavailable.  This was due to the fact that you did not perform filtering on this file.  Once filtering is performed, all parameters are available.  So, I opened filter, loaded the file and hand filtered to the best values.  It required around 10-15 mm on the x and z but 50 on the y.  Why?? 4. When I was able to re-load the .cf and vids on digi, I looked at your calibration volume.  It is very low and not big enough.  In display, if you select  VIEW/MULTIPLE, you will see every frame and note your stick figure goes from smaller to larger.  This is a function of being outside your calibration area.  As a rule, you need 2/3rds the height of the subject and about 2/3 rds of the walking length.  We do this with a simple rectagular frame.  I use 3 meter long by 1 meter wide by 2 meter high.  Your configuration is way to small. Anyway, I sent you back the corrected file.  You should be able to look at it and do measurements.  However, your accuracy will be poor due to the calibration shortcomings. Let me know if you understand all the above and need further help on the next pass.Bob
 ps- make a new file folder for these corrected files to view from.  Also, if you re-load in digi, use the .trim avi's not the .trim.trim.trim.  As to the name of the file, you decide this yourself.  It just defaulted to .cam1  for the name of the project file because you did not create your own name.  This has nothing to do with the names of the .avi files.  That is why you see .cam1 in both t views on the screen. 

May 12, 2009 06:31:48 PM, robynbrandt6@hotmail.com wrote:

Hi again Bob
Okay, so my camera's were anywhere from 45-60 degrees apart, hopefully that is good enough.
 
If it helps at all, i was getting an error message that said, MJPEG Field Image Order Undefined, Use Image/Video to set order, but i have not recieved this message as of late, and i dont think i have been doing anything different to have changed it
 
However, I did end up with subject.cam1.trim.1t [subject.cam1.trim.avi] and subject.cam1.trim.2t[subject.cam2.trim.avi]
So my 1t and 2t seems like its okay, its my cam.1 and cam1 in the titles, but if that is as you say, irrelevant, than I am not sure why i can't display 3d data.
 
I hope these are the right files this time...they are all new from the last set i sent you
Thank you again

Robyn

 
~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 

Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:35:59 -0500
From: rww5325@verizon.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: RE: update


My mistake, you did only send me one file plus the .cf file.  Please send me the second video and the 3d file of your completed study for me to examine.Bob

May 12, 2009 10:25:06 AM, robynbrandt6@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Bob,
Oh sorry!
I didn't realize you were away, I just never heard back and then didn't know what to think.
 
Here are a couple of my files.  My issue must be something very simple, I just cant get my head around what.
I can't get 3-D data in the display mode. 
I have 2 camera views.
In trimming i open the AVI from each view
In digi. I select 2 views, and put the AVI in each, however that this point, both camera views that are opened are labeled as cam1.  I can't seem to get one window opened as camera 1 and the other as camera 2.  Even though I can open the AVI from camera 1 and camera 2, they are both get saved (seperately) as cam 1
Does this make any sense to you?
I am not sure if the files I have attached will show you this problem, but I hope so. 
I seem to go through the digi and transfom modes fine (doing it manually), but in the end display, i can only select linear displacement (not joint angle or 3-D which I am intereseted in)
 
Thank you so much for your assisstance with this finicky problem, I am blonde and hate to admit it, but sometimes it is the really simple things that I tend to over look...
 
Robyn


~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: Re: update
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:53:26 -0500

Hi RobynBeen out of the country for a couple of weeks.  Sorry, I don't remember getting the file.  Send it again and let me know what are your current problems, if any.  Best of luck with your thesis.Bob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: Bob Wainwright Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 2:12 PMSubject: update

Hi Bob
It has been a while since we corresponded.  I did eventually send you one of my files, but have not heard anything back.
Can you please let me know if something is wrong in any respect.
I have been a bit side tracked writing about 100 pages of my 150 page thesis, but am ready to get back into the technical part of the project again. 
Please do touch base and let me know if there is anything that is not okay from yours or Gideon's points.
 
Thank you for keeping me up to date.
 
Robyn 


~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: Re: DLT and Filter
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:49:19 -0400

Hi RobynSounds like you may have digitized the files individually?  At any rate, it does not matter.  Something is not quite right.  It looks as though you do have your files named correctly.  You correct the problem as follows:1. Open the Transform Module.  Open your file "subject.cf"  It should show two views.  Check each view and pres the 3d button on top.  This does the DLT.  For some reason, your digi program is not letting it be done automatically.   After transformation, it will automatically filter the data to a very small degree.  You will than be able to perform all functions in display because it will be transformed and filtered. 2. If you want to filter the data by hand (probably a good idea), you can do it through the filter module.   Let me know if this works for you.  If not, send me the files and I will see what I can do but I am 99% sure this will solve your problem.Bob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 4:44 PMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob,
 
To give you an update on this whole mess....i replaced my hard drive and downloaded another version of the software.  It is working just fine now.  I also have upgraded my RAM (to 2 GB).
 
I am now processing all my videos and i hit a snag...if i could trouble you for one more piece of help?
I have done the digitizing, but i think it is something in the way i am saving the data that is not stopping me from being able to use the display option to properly extract the data i need, i'll explain here:
 
i have 2 camera's, therefore 2 views.
in digi i have them opened as:  subject.cam1.trim.1t[subject.cam1.trim.avi]  and subject.cam1.trim.2t[subject.cam2.trim.avi]
in the digi when i click on DLT it tells me i have insufficient views.  also, in the display option i can only extract the raw position (not joint angle etc which i want to use)
 
Can you see where i am wrong.  i am using the 2 different avi files, but both views are named for the camera 1...how do i correct this?  this didnt happen the first time around when i did my pilot study, so i am not sure where i have missed up, but i have spent a few hours trying to play around wiht it....
 
and lastly, are you aware of any 'gold standard' so to speak about these 3d  video imaging programs? or specific peer reviewed articles that reference them (not just the ariel, but any...as in what is the gold standard, is there one?)
 
Any help is appreciated....and very much so already to this point
 
Thanks,
Robyn

~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: Re: dropping frames
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:30:22 -0400

Hi RobynRe: computer- I would save my money on computer check and re-loading the disk.  It sounds like you do indeed have a problem with the hard disk itself.  If it were me, I would buy a new hard drive for the computer, load from scratch and go from there.  I believe this would be the cheapest solution. Your study sounds great.  I would love to see your results when finished.  Best of luck with it.  Let me know how the solution for the computer goes, when you determine what to do.RegardsBob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:10 AMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob
 
Thank you AGAIN for the help...here are my answers
1. If i use one camera i drop less frames, but still drop them
2. When the problem originally started, just prior to it, i had created a new folder save a copy of the temporary files (as i had not saved any to drive yet!) and recieved a messsage that there was a problem with my hard disc the next day.  I then followed a 5 step prompt to do a systems check on my computer and everything came out okay.  since then i have done all the defrag etc, but not prior to.
3. I have borrowed my sisters laptop to finish off my study, reloaded APAS on it and it is working just fine, so its obviously on my laptop...I am going to look into doing one of the two options of wiping things clean or taking it in...just not sure yet.  I have been recently getting an error report every single time i close my internet browser screen, something is not right for sure
 
As for my work, I am almost (hence doing my thesis) an osteopath.  I am a student in osteopathy but do some teaching at massage therapy schools, and may consider once i am done my thesis teaching at the osteopathic schools if there is a opening for me.
 
My work is to determine if osteopathic techniques can influence the body in three-dimensional parameters (center of mass, segment joint angles etc.)
It is quite a small and unique field and i have undertaken this giant project all on my own!
I really hope to find some significant results, although I am not sure what the statistics will show yet, i did a pilot study which showed a positive trend, but still have to see.
Much of osteopathic work is treating various organs/bones/softtissues in a very volumetric and three-dimensional manner, so to me there should be a way to marry the two ideas.
 
Thanks again, I hope this helps for some info
 
Robyn


~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: Re: dropping frames
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:22:55 -0400

Hi RobynLast thoughts:1. Can you successfully capture one camera without dropping frames, if so, up to how long?2. When you lost the abiilty to capture two without dropping, did something else occur with the computer at that time?  (loading new software, etc.) 3. Last but least, I still think you have a software, adware, virus problem that you are not detecting.  We know your computer is fast enought, 1gb ram is adequate for two cameras, you did it before, it will work okay on the next computer (unless your cables have a problem, which you will find out soon).  After this next correspondence, you may have to take it in to a computer expert to see if your registry is congested or you have some other problem.  Instead of spending a lot of money on a cleanup, you can also consider the following: backup your files, wipe the hard disk and re-load XP from scratch. Just for my curiousity, what kind of work are you doing with APAS?  Are you a student or teacher?  What is your specialty?   I am in Point Pleasant, NJ and have successfully used APAS for over 24 years for sports medicine, workers compensation and physical therapy.  I am curious about what you do because there may be some things we can talk about from a business prospective for your future activities.  Of course, you do not have to share any information with me, that is entirely up to you.RegardsBob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:02 PMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob
 
I am located in Toronto, Canada
 
I have windows xp
I have captured and saved 120 video's without dropping frames

I now have more free space on my c drive then used space, 38 GB free (33.4 GB used)
 
(excuse the lack of computer knowledge) i have 1.59 GHz,  1.00 GB of RAM
 
let me know what your thinking?
I have successfully downloaded a new APAS to a second borrowed laptop but still want to get it fixed on mine if possible
 
thanks so much
 
Robyn

~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: dropping frames
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:05:26 -0400

Hi RobynBut I think I remember your saying that you did not have a problem before a certain point with dropped frames?   How much Ram do you have?  What is the operating system? (vista , xp, etc) Where are you located Robyn?   If you only have a C drive, that is okay, sometimes they are divided into C D.  By the way, how much memory is left on your C drive?Bob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:14 PMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob
I am storing my files on an external drive and the temp files on my c drive. 
Do you think this problem can be my RAM?
The only drive that shows up in 'my computer' is my c drive, thats the only one i have defrag'ed, should i try and find a d drive?
 
I am at a loss....
 
Robyn

~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: dropping frames
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:29:56 -0400

Hi RobynIf you are trying to send temp .avi files upon capture to the external hard drive it may be too slow.  That is why I suggested using the C or D drive on the laptop for the temp files and the external to store them (if you do not know what I mean here, please let me know).  The USB cables work fine at 15 feet.  You probably do not have to defrag the external but make sure you defrag every drive on the internal. If all the suggestions fail, I am thinking perhaps you may have developed a problem with the internal hard drive.  Anyway, please try what I am suggesting and see if it makes a difference.  Please let me know.  RegardsBob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:16 PMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob
 
Thank you again
 
I did not defrag the external drive, should i? its brand new basically.
I have usb cables that are under 5 feet and my subjects are within 15 ft for the most part.  I am now trying to download the software on a new computer and start over basically...

I could try a signal booster, but its not even working at close range in some trials.
 
Thank you so much for you help...i really appreciate it
 
I will let you know
 
Robyn

~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: Re: dropping frames
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:46:41 -0500

Hi RobynOkay, that is one more clue.  If you use usb2, you are only good for 5 meters.  After 5 meters, you need a signal booster on the cable.  They sell these for only a few more dollars than the 5 meter cable.   I have many installations where I use this configuration.  You should have no problem with two cameras on usb2.  If your cables are longer than 5 meters, try shorter cables and see if this is the problem. By the way, did you defrage the extra hard drive that you use for data collection.  If it is an external, you may have to use the hard drive on the computer for the temp file and the external for the storage, after it is complete.Let me know.Bob----- Original Message ----- From: Robyn Brandt To: kincon@bellatlantic.net Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 7:38 AMSubject: RE: dropping frames

Hi Bob
 
Thank you for the email.
 
I do have an external hard drive that has the video's i have been collecting on them.
I recently have done a virus scan (so if i have one my computer is not detecting it), defragmented, and done a disc clean.
The laptop i am using is the same one i do use for the internet, unfortunately I only have one and this is a one time thesis project for me, so likely will not be buying a second, although, I may try and borrow one and download the software again to see if its my computer.
 
I have not needed firewire, i was on usb 2-enhanced and was collecting the data just fine, it seems unlikely that if it was working okay before, all of a sudden i now need firewire, although at this point i am willing to try anything, is there something i should know about the length of the cable if i do get them?
 
Thank you again for your time helping me,  these technical blimps can be very frustrating
 
Robyn

~ When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change~
~ True greatness and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul~
~ A mind that has been stretched will never return to its original dimension~
 



 
From: kincon@bellatlantic.net
To: robynbrandt6@hotmail.com
CC: gideon@arielnet.com
Subject: dropping frames
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:15:30 -0500

Hi RobynI am Robert Wainwright, P.T., long colleague of Gideon Ariel's and occasional tech consultant.  I have been following your emails.  I would suggest you get a second hard drive and dedicate it to the video data collection only.  They are very inexpensive these days.  I would have bet on the defrag also.  There is also a possibility that you have ADWare or some sort of virus hidden in your system.  This will screw up the frame grabbing also.  I never allow my data collection computer to go on the internet. It is not logical that it works great and than suddenly does not.  I have six cameras collecting data at all times with no dropped frames.   Last thought, how long is your firewire cable?RegardsBob

 

 

www.arielnet.com

Gideon Ariel, Ph.D.
--  

 

�� �� <yb1017@hotmail.com> writes:



Ross

Good luck with the swimming analysis.

Do you know Shuping Li? He has just finsihed his PhD at Edinburgh and is now back in China.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you would like to discuss the problems further.

We have tried uisng MATLAB to identify pixels of contrasting colours (differences in RGB content) to overcome the effect of the blue filtering that reduces the contrast of black and white. However, we did not get as far as finding a system that worked.  

6. Try using black balls attached to the swimmer. Black balls from hobby shops can be useful - We attach them using a hot melt glue gun to several layers of white surgical tape.  
5. If you are using 3D methods have the camera deeper. The markers may be less obscured by bubbles when looking upwards rather than from the side.
4. Have the cameras closer to the swimmer.
3. Increase the sensitivity of the software to detecting diferences between black and white
2. Increase the contrast by using a white background against the black marker.
1. Try changing the size of the black markers.

Your problem is a very difficult one. We do have some success with automatic digitising using the APAS system. As far as I am aware APAS is the only system that uses black markers so you will have more success wioth this system than any other. Another advantage is that even when you lose the marker for a few frames you can digitise manually until it starts picking them up again. In addition to the problem with bubbles we have found that the blue filtering effect of the water reduces contrast. There are several things you could try:

Hello Yang Bin,

 http://www.hotmail.com �������������ĵ����ʼ�ϵͳ�� MSN Hotmail��  
_________________________________________________________________

                             F&H, Yang Bin

  Thank you very much!
  How can we resolve this problem?
clearly, so we cannot digitize automatically.
bubbles. In the water, the air bubles are white. We cannot see the points
pen. But when the athlete's speed is a little high, there are too many air
use the automatic digitize. We paint the angle points with the black marker
We use the cameras under the water to capture the video data. They want to
  Now we are dealing with the matter of National Swimming Team of China.
International Sports Biomechamics Conference in Beijing last year .
  I am Yang Bin, an technician of Beijing F&H Co, China. We met at the
  How are you?
Dear Mr. Sanders: ____________________________________________________________

 

Hi Guys,

Bob - that was it (turning off the missing pt box). Went a lot faster. I digitized your cube with 8 points in the order we do for our baseball batters.

Had a few bad points toward the end, but passed along the .3d file to Rich (16 pts) to play with on the skin. We'll need to make it work for different xyz coordinate spaces for sure - probably just a toggle we'll put in.

Thanks guys,

Scott

---- Original Message ----
To: <sbendis@virsys.net>
From: "Robert Wainwright, P.T." <kincon@bellatlantic.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:59:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Auto Digitizing Question

Hi Scott
Did you digitize the calibration cube or did you copy (either is okay but must be done before using digi xp)? Did you get all 5 video's to appear on the screen automatically after selecting the proper first file? Second, you must turn off the notify if missing point box under auto digi options. It is using the new algorithm and only notifies you if unable to see two, otherwise, it askes for help on all missing points, all pictures. I suggest you open my completed file, note the settings and use for yours. There will be some frames that need help if not seeing two points or extreme acceleration but it should be good for 95% or more. It is all in the settings.

Let me know how it goes.
Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: <sbendis@virsys.net>
To: "Robert Wainwright, P.T." <kincon@bellatlantic.net>
Cc: "GideonAriel" <gideon@arielnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Auto Digitizing Question


> Hi Gentlemen,
>
> I'm trying my first attempt at using Auto Digitizing on Bob's Golfer (5
videos). For every frame there are points that it does not see (which I'll
click on manually to help finish) but it does this for every frame.
>
> Is this the process you need to help it go through? or do you hit escape
or some other feature to make it go faster?
>
> Thanks Guys,
>
> Scott